A gas company "puts up"

[Future Fanatic]

A gas company puts up $750,000 to monitor themselves(and others). They must be pretty confident.

Monitors to check streams in gas-drilling areas | Philadelphia Inquirer | 12/11/2009

 

[eddavidson9]

i wish we could get these in every river system just for the hell of it...good fishing info on top of keeping an eye out.

 

[Uncrowded]

So let me get this straight: there will be a high-tech “fish-kill detector” letting us know whenever there’s a toxic spill in a stream -- after the fact? This sounds about as useful as having a bullet detector letting you know when you've been shot.

While I’m all for monitoring our streams, this is another PR ploy by the gas companies to come off as good guys.

This reminds me of the various landowner coalitions who have signed off massive amounts of acreage to the gas companies. They claim they will have the most stringent testing and monitoring of their water before, during, and after drilling to protect themselves. So this means that if their groundwater is polluted the gas companies will have to pay them big time. I get that, but here’s the thing: THE GROUNDWATER IS STILL POLLUTED. Maybe the landowner gets a huge settlement so they can move BUT THE GROUNDWATER IS STILL POLLUTED. Maybe the gas company gets slapped with such a big fine that it goes belly up. BUT THE GROUNDWATER IS STILL POLLUTED. Get it?

Big story in New Jersey today about a new “cancer cluster” identified in Pompon Lakes linked to a DuPont plant that operated there for more than a century…Here’s a quote from the story:

“The report did say cancer is associated with the type of vapor emanating from tainted soil and groundwater in the target area. The water was supposed to have been cleaned nearly 20 years ago, but the study said mitigation was inadequate, allowing vapor to seep into homes. The cancer information was included with a notice to residents urging them to install "vapor mitigation systems" to remove gases that may contaminate their indoor air. The health department said DuPont must install the vapor systems for free under a remediation plan with the state Department of Environmental Protection, and that 80 percent of the 450 homes have already made installation arrangements.”

Sounds great doesn’t it? Here’s the link if you want to read the full story:

Higher cancer rates found near site - NJ.com

The Bottom line is this: once you move forward with this stuff, there are no do-overs…

But there IS an opportunity for a do-over with the draft Environmental Impact Statement that would allow gas drilling in the Catskills. Email Governor Patterson; tell him the EIS to allow gas drilling needs to be withdrawn. It only takes a minute and it’s FUN. Here’s how:

Urgent Marcellus Shale Citizen Action Alert | Toxics Targeting

 

[eddavidson9]

lets say, hypothetically, there is a leak or spill that affects water chemtistry to a measurable amount; if the system is in place, perhaps it can be caught before major damage is done. you're right, it's not meant to be a preventative measure, but it is a good faith effort. not to mention, the value of baseline data.

sure, it's a good PR move, sure as hell doesnt make it evil or bad science. its an investment and in the best ineterst of all involved. nothing will satisfy you or stop your bitching, you find fault with everything and show total disregard for logic and reason, you use completely irrelevant and unrelated issues to build an argument out of emotion and fear. you're like my girlfriend during "that time". wait a minute...is that you ...?

also...what is this "EIS to allow gas drilling" that should be "withdrawn"? it doesnt allow for drilling, it assess the potential mit impacts and proposes mitigation. and why does it need to be withdrawn? if you don't think it's adequate, why can't it be amended?

 

[eddavidson9]

just to be clear, i'm not saying give them a free pass since they're doing this...but why crucify them for funding the project? maybe i just dont get it.

 

[Future Fanatic]

maybe i just dont get it.

No, you seem to "get it" just fine.

 

[Uncrowded]

Whoa. Slow down, my friend. I believe I said I’m all for monitoring of streams. Baseline data is good and so is apple pie.

I also don’t want to get into a semantic argument about Environmental Impact Statements. That’s a non-starter. Here’s a link to a really excellent, logical and SCIENCE-BASED letter signed by more than 25 citizen groups (including the very radical League of Women Voters and Theodore Gordon Flyfishers) spelling out why the draft EIS should be WITHDRAWN. It’s pretty logical and straight forward: http://catskillpost.files.wordpress.com/2009/12/dsgeis-request-to-governor-paterson-12-3-09-2.pdf

Lastly, I hate to disagree again, but I do think it is very relevant to point out the LONG-TERM and often UNFORSEEN effects of industrial pollution to the landscape. I’ll bet the residents around the DuPont facility had no idea they would be dealing with cancer and groundwater pollution many decades later, just like the residents of Dimock, PA, didn’t think they would be drinking bottled water for the foreseeable future.

 

[Future Fanatic]

So let me get this straight: there will be a high-tech “fish-kill detector” letting us know whenever there’s a toxic spill in a stream -- after the fact? This sounds about as useful as having a bullet detector letting you know when you've been shot.

It seems your "myopicness" has no bounds. You assume the worst of the companies who are paying to monitor themselves whereas I assume it would be stupid of them to spend 750,000 dollars to collect the evidence to prosecute themselves... so they MUST be pretty confident in their abilities to protect the environment.

This reminds me of the various landowner coalitions who have signed off massive amounts of acreage to the gas companies. They claim they will have the most stringent testing and monitoring of their water before, during, and after drilling to protect themselves. So this means that if their groundwater is polluted the gas companies will have to pay them big time. I get that, but here’s the thing: THE GROUNDWATER IS STILL POLLUTED. Maybe the landowner gets a huge settlement so they can move BUT THE GROUNDWATER IS STILL POLLUTED. Maybe the gas company gets slapped with such a big fine that it goes belly up. BUT THE GROUNDWATER IS STILL POLLUTED. Get it?

The Bottom line is this: once you move forward with this stuff, there are no do-overs…

But there IS an opportunity for a do-over with the draft Environmental Impact Statement that would allow gas drilling in the Catskills. Email Governor Patterson; tell him the EIS to allow gas drilling needs to be withdrawn. It only takes a minute and it’s FUN. Here’s how:

But, uncrowded, be honest with the folks...

NOTHING will satisfy you and others of your ilk. Every concern you have: water usage, fracking chemicals, roadways, noise, radioactivity, etc. could be solved, but you'd STILL be against drilling. You don't want a DO OVER with the dgeis. You want a DO NEVER with drilling.

You are just trying to manipulate others to do your bidding. You're the gun control lobby, bud. Chip, chip, chip away at what you see as the problem... by convincing people that there IS a problem.

 

[catskill dick]

A gas company puts up $750,000 to monitor themselves(and others). They must be pretty confident.

Monitors to check streams in gas-drilling areas | Philadelphia Inquirer | 12/11/2009

Do you really think that $750,000 is a significant amount of money in this context? If you do, please PM me I have a really nice bridge in lower Manhattan that I would like to sell you.

East Resources (the oil company in question) got $350 million from KKR this summer in what is described as a minority investment. The Wall Street Journal refers to East Resources as "one of the biggest players in the area known as the Marcellus Shale." $750,000 is a rounding error for these guys, not a show of confidence.

 

[Uncrowded]

“Myopicness”? “Others of your ilk”?? “You’re the gun control lobby”???
(sigh) God Love You...

 

[Kilgour Farms]

Using fear mongering to advance an agenda is typical and an expected response for people who don't truely understand the processes of drilling and its saftey record of no fracing fluids in water supplies or all the implications involved in finding domestic sources of clean energy.

These measurements are usually looking at total dissolved solids in the system and not a specific chemical. TDS are an early indicator that something may be wrong. The DRBC will be doing the same. Of course you probably already know this since you know so much about drilling.

You could also make the case that because the Delaware is now a cold water fishery that it has adversely effected the natural ecosystems in the river. I'll sight several examples, dissapearence of the american eel, shad, dwarf wedge mussel. and the introduction of envasive species such as trout and dydimo.

Maybe we should have NYC get rid of the reservoirs and return the river back to a warm water fishery to help save the ecosystem endangered by these reservoirs???

 

[Future Fanatic]

...and the introduction of envasive species such as trout and dydimo.

Maybe we should have NYC get rid of the reservoirs and return the river back to a warm water fishery to help save the ecosystem endangered by these reservoirs???

Stop it...

That's environmental damage of the sort they like...

I bet they even try to get NYC to release more of that clean water so needed for people to help some of those introduced invasive species...

 

[Future Fanatic]

Do you really think that $750,000 is a significant amount of money in this context? If you do, please PM me I have a really nice bridge in lower Manhattan that I would like to sell you.

East Resources (the oil company in question) got $350 million from KKR this summer in what is described as a minority investment. The Wall Street Journal refers to East Resources as "one of the biggest players in the area known as the Marcellus Shale." $750,000 is a rounding error for these guys, not a show of confidence.

I guess when it's $750,000 of OTHER peoples' money you consider it insignificant. Thanks for enlightening us by giving us a glimpse into your priorities.

 

[Future Fanatic]

“Myopicness”? “Others of your ilk”?? “You’re the gun control lobby”???
(sigh) God Love You...

Yes, I know, God loves me...

But tell us, what is it that would make you comfortable with drilling?

 

[Uncrowded]

Using fear mongering to advance an agenda is typical and an expected response for people who don't truely understand the processes of drilling and its saftey record of no fracing fluids in water supplies or all the implications involved in finding domestic sources of clean energy.

I don't get it. If it's so safe, then why are they installing these high-tech monitoring devices? It's almost as if PA and the gas company are EXPECTING spills...

 

[Future Fanatic]

I don't get it. If it's so safe, then why are they installing these high-tech monitoring devices? It's almost as if PA and the gas company are EXPECTING spills...

Well, now I'm just guessin' here... If I were a gas drilling company who had total faith in my ability to be environmentally safe, I might want to set up a system that will show it was NOT my company that caused an environmental mess.

Ya see, when something bad happens, let's say like the Dunkard Creek fish kill, the Nutso Anti drilling guys seize on that to blame Frack water and Marcellus drilling. They post articles on web sites and get all the moderate environmentally concious guys all fired up about the EVIL gas companies "gunning for their trout streams".

But then, a few months later after the fear mongering has taken it's toll... of course the EPA finds it wasn't Marcellus Frack water at all... but chronic mining discharges of brine water...


Read more: EPA pins killing of Dunkard Creek on mine discharges

 

[Joe D]

You could also make the case that because the Delaware is now a cold water fishery that it has adversely effected the natural ecosystems in the river. I'll sight several examples, dissapearence of the american eel, shad, dwarf wedge mussel. and the introduction of envasive species such as trout and dydimo.

Maybe we should have NYC get rid of the reservoirs and return the river back to a warm water fishery to help save the ecosystem endangered by these reservoirs???

That would be great if we could turn it back into the giant brook trout fishery it once was. But anyway we wont see that happen so why risk further degradation?

Nick Karas' book, Brook Trout gives us a very good detailed look at what the Upper Delaware looked like in precolonial and colonial times. It begins on page 187 and continues for several pages. Definitely worth the read. Actually, the whole chapter titled The Catskills would be found interesting to most NY anglers.

The reduction of the American eel and American shad populations are two causes quite removed from the reservoirs. These are issues that entail another topic of discussion as they are related to things outside of the watershed.

As does the Dwarf wedge mussel, which requires a well oxygenated silt free habitat. Currently the largest populations occur in NH and VT. The leading cause of wedge mussel loss has been silt from agriculture, road construction, forestry, land clearing and stream bank vegetation removal.

 

[Kilgour Farms]

That would be great if we could turn it back into the giant brook trout fishery it once was. But anyway we wont see that happen so why risk further degradation?

Nick Karas' book, Brook Trout gives us a very good detailed look at what the Upper Delaware looked like in precolonial and colonial times. It begins on page 187 and continues for several pages. Definitely worth the read. Actually, the whole chapter titled The Catskills would be found interesting to most NY anglers.

The reduction of the American eel and American shad populations are two causes quite removed from the reservoirs. These are issues that entail another topic of discussion as they are related to things outside of the watershed.

As does the Dwarf wedge mussel, which requires a well oxygenated silt free habitat. Currently the largest populations occur in NH and VT. The leading cause of wedge mussel loss has been silt from agriculture, road construction, forestry, land clearing and stream bank vegetation removal.

Now your getting my point.

 

[Kilgour Farms]

By the way I have been talking to the NPS about restricting wading and boating in low water situations to protect the Dwarf Wedge Mussel and they seem to be very receptive to the idea. All to protect the environment.

PS. Since I got my buck this year do I qualify for extra carbon credits??

 

[Future Fanatic]

By the way I have been talking to the NPS about restricting wading and boating in low water situations to protect the Dwarf Wedge Mussel and they seem to be very receptive to the idea.

All to protect the environment.

Since it is to save an endangered species, I'm sure everyone here will get behind this proposal then, yes?

Or maybe we'll hear cries such as "there is no conclusive proof linking Dwarf Wedge Mussel mortality with wading and boating activity"...

 

[Joe D]

Or maybe we'll hear cries such as "there is no conclusive proof linking..."

Nah, that's already the prelude to the oil & gas companies cry.

 

[Future Fanatic]

Nah, that's already the prelude to the oil & gas companies cry.

I'm sorry JoeD...
Since you earn money by keeping the river wadeable and floatable, your thoughts don't matter here. Please refrain from speaking on the topic again.

I wonder how Obama feels about the plight of the Dwarf Wedgemussel...

 

[Kilgour Farms]

I'm sorry JoeD...

I wonder how Obama feels about the plight of the Dwarf Wedgemussel...

When I was a kid we would steam them and eat them, a little chewy. Maybe we're the reason their engandered??? I hope not. I haven't done that in years.

 

[Joe D]

When I was a kid we would steam them and eat them, a little chewy. Maybe we're the reason their engandered??? I hope not. I haven't done that in years.

You may be thinking of Elliptio Complanata. These are the mussels you commonly see in the river and grow up five inches long.

The dwarf wedge mussel is usually buried in the bottom and reaches a maximum size of about 1 3/4 inches (45mm), with most being smaller than one inch. So most likely those weren't what you ate.

 

[Kilgour Farms]

Just pulling your leg. I know what they look like I have plenty around my place.

We did eat river mussels when I was a kid couldn't tell you what kind, I think there are 5 different species in the river..