Fishing A Dropper

[AKSkim]

I don't fish tandem nymph rigs because....

Casting turns out to be a rats nest.

I like to rap my tippet around the indicator...

Way to dangerous....

I watched McAwful's latest video on fishing a tandem rig and.. hummmm... interesting, educational, I can do that... I think.

Charlie Meck's latest book is .. fishing a tandem fly set up.

Maybe it is time to put away those fears and give it a try this winter.

But in the spring and while you are talking to me and I keep say .. "Huh...Huh???" you can safely assume that the dropper fly caught something as it went by.

As always, want to keep my Buccaneers where they are at.

AK Skim

 

[Corndog]

I don't fish tandem nymph rigs because....

Casting turns out to be a rats nest.

I like to rap my tippet around the indicator...

Way to dangerous....

I watched McAwful's latest video on fishing a tandem rig and.. hummmm... interesting, educational, I can do that... I think.

Charlie Meck's latest book is .. fishing a tandem fly set up.

Maybe it is time to put away those fears and give it a try this winter.

But in the spring and while you are talking to me and I keep say .. "Huh...Huh???" you can safely assume that the dropper fly caught something as it went by.

As always, want to keep my Buccaneers where they are at.

AK Skim

AK, we've gotta put those fears to rest.

Charlie Meck's mission in life it to get all flyfishermen to fish the tandom rig. If I didn't know better, I'd think he invented it. Attend his seminar at the FF Show and you'll know what I mean. Great guy!

Casting hint: Let your back cast pull tight before starting your forward cast. I means straight back, no loop at all. And if you don't occasionally get tangled in your indicator, you're not trying hard enough.

Always willing to help you learn to fish,

Cdog

 

[JeffK]

Tandem rigs are a real bonus some days.

A few more suggestions.

Trouble with indicators? Go old school and do without. Will cause you to watch a lot closer. With heavier nymphs watch the bow in the line and strike when it tightens or does something odd.


Open loops really help keeping multiple flies/nymphs from tangling, but so does going to a heavier tippet. I am going to be clobbered for this, but I start at 3X to 4X and go down as needed. I fish 6X a fair amount with those 22 Zebra midges, but in general I think people use far too fine a tippet. IMHO it is more sporting to use heavier tippets - forces you do get presentation down just so and allows the fish to be played fairly quickly.

 

[Karel]

Casting hint: Let your back cast pull tight before starting your forward cast. I means straight back, no loop at all.
Cdog

If room allows (i.e. no other fly fisher nearby, brush, trees and other obstacles) I often let the fly line stretch out completely below me and just flick the rig upstream, without any false casting. The tension of the water is enough to load the rod and to make the next presentation.

just my 2 cents.

 

[Pete]

Echoing what Jeff said (somewhat):

• Use as heavy a dropper as possible. I generally use (hard/stiff) 3X for droppers (4X occasionally), regardless of how light or soft the point tippet is.
  
  Keep the dropper short to minimize tangles (and make them easier to untangle). I normally leave an 8" tag off a blood (barrel) knot, (after attaching the fly about 6"). I keep re-using it until it's too short to conviently tie to a fly.
  
  If it's windy, keep the point tippet fairly short (24" or less).
  
  I never used an indicator, but agree that it would be likely to complicate things.
  
  Definitely, keep an open loop, while casting.
  
  Put the heavier fly on the point tippet.

OR...

Some people don't use conventional droppers, but add a second fly by tying another tippet to the bend of the first hook. I imagine that if you can cast an indicator without problems, you can do this with impunity. I've done this a few times when I wanted to add a third fly without rebuilding the leader, or want to add a fly that's too small for the 3X or 4X dropper.

 

[McAwful]

Ak,

Karel is right on with the water load. Use that or a roll cast if you are using an indicator. Back casting w/all of that crap on your line will get you a tangle eventually no matter how open your loop is. This will be mentioned in the videos over the next month or two.

JeffK makes a great point about not using the indicator. Liesering or Checz style is great in the Spring-Fall in NJ, or in some of the Ontario tributaries winter fisheries. In NJ, if you are really matching winter food sources and feeding patterns for Trout, the indicator is clutch. Hits are super subtle and you need a near perfect drag free presentation (or slower) in 90% of the typical winter situations I fish.

Jeff is also right about the tippet. My normal winter two fly indicator rig is
weight on 3x
blood knot to
16-20in 4x fluorocarbon to 1st fly
clinch knot to
16-20in 5x flour carbon to last fly

I almost never use 6x in the winter even on #22-#26 size flies. Take a threader and stuff it through...

Cdog-Charlie is going to tie a fly (video) and maybe cover a fishing technique with us in the spring. He is also the nicest person on the planet. Eric Stroup is also going to do some more winter fishing techniques and tie a Zebra Midge (video) in the next few weeks when his rivers and weather decide to cooperate with us.

Pete- the blood knot tag end connection is great and I use it when I go to a 3rd fly.

McA

 

[Corndog]

Cdog-Charlie is going to tie a fly (video) and maybe cover a fishing technique with us in the spring. He is also the nicest person on the planet. Eric Stroup is also going to do some more winter fishing techniques and tie a Zebra Midge (video) in the next few weeks when his rivers and weather decide to cooperate with us.
McA

Where?

When?

How do I get there?

Cdog

 

[Corndog]

If room allows (i.e. no other fly fisher nearby, brush, trees and other obstacles) I often let the fly line stretch out completely below me and just flick the rig upstream, without any false casting. The tension of the water is enough to load the rod and to make the next presentation.

just my 2 cents.

Good point, Karel.

I do the same about half the time.

And as you said...without any false casting. That's where most of my tangle disasters come from.

Everyone has a personal preference, mine is 5X from leader to first fly and 6X from first fly to second fly.

Cdog

Cdog

 

[Fishin Technician]

I always use a dropper when I use Soft Hackles, and keep the false casting down to minimum or with a very wide slow loop. I usually roll cast them if possible. F/T

 

[flyman23]

I also find it a lot easier to let the water load the rod. What I find curious, I always seem to catch fish on the bottom fly. Hardly ever on the top one. I've even switched them around with the same results.

 

[JeffK]

Now to stir the pot a little.

I like tying the dropper flies off a tag line (particularly for soft hackle wets or Czech nymphs).

The New Zealand style (tying a dropper line off the bend of the hook of the upper nymph) is effective and easy to do afield. This is what Mr Meck touts and he has a great way to tie the dropper line to the bend of a hook. However, I find this to be a snagging machine in places crawling with trout, like the Pequest spillway. Little Lehigh etc. I see way too many fish at the Pequest TCA with hooks all over their heads, tails, and dorsals and I don't let the fly guys get off the hook for this one - regardless of all the outcry against those damn spinfishermen. Don't find that with a tag line dropper. If only circle hooks worked in midge sizes!

AKS, I thought you would appreciate full disclosure, especially where snagging is concerned.

 

[AKSkim]

Jeff;

You provided some very interesting insight into the possibility of snagging with a dropper.

Never even considered such an item.

Thanks.

 

[quality time]

Now to stir the pot a little.

I like tying the dropper flies off a tag line (particularly for soft hackle wets or Czech nymphs).

The New Zealand style (tying a dropper line off the bend of the hook of the upper nymph) is effective and easy to do afield. This is what Mr Meck touts and he has a great way to tie the dropper line to the bend of a hook. However, I find this to be a snagging machine in places crawling with trout, like the Pequest spillway. Little Lehigh etc. I see way too many fish at the Pequest TCA with hooks all over their heads, tails, and dorsals and I don't let the fly guys get off the hook for this one - regardless of all the outcry against those damn spinfishermen. Don't find that with a tag line dropper. If only circle hooks worked in midge sizes!

AKS, I thought you would appreciate full disclosure, especially where snagging is concerned.

Jeff....I agree with 99% + of the stuff you post, however I'm not convinced this time. Why do you feel that the NZ style snags fish more than a classic dropper set-up? When fish are stacked up only feet or inches away from each other, any hook going through the area stands a chance of snagging a fish. Do you have any evidence to support your claim, anything published somewhere, or even any physics rationale for this claim? If you find fish with hooks all over their bodies, how do you know they were from a NZ rig? And even if they were from a NZ rig, how do you know the damage was from the trailer?

QT

 

[McAwful]

Jeff,

Great point! With any multiple fly rig your chances of snagging fish goes way up. There are three things I have observed myself, and watching others fish, that will cause a snag when fishing a New Zealand style rig.

1. Too much distance between weight and flies. Limit your tippet sections to 16" or 20". The written in stone formula is actually one and one half times longer than the biggest fish you expect to catch. I understand this from the no snag perspective, but it completely screws with your drift if you go too far in either direction.

2. Upward hook set. Go with a nice gentle sweep of your rod river left, river right, or downstream (depending on where you are in relation to the fish.) You will not only have a better chance of getting a good hook set, but you are way less likely to snag a fish. You are also immediately in a side pressure situation. We all know this is way better than the Bassmaster "fish on!" 11 o'clock fish looser technique.

3. Cutting cross current with your drift. If the fish are stacked up in a small area make sure your cast puts your indicator, weight and flies inside both of the outer edges parallel of the seam you are fishing. If your indicator or fly line lands in the seam, and your flies are 45 degrees from the line or indicator and 2 feet outside the seam, the indicator or fly line will pull your weight and or flies across the fish diagonally. Easy snags and no hook ups in this scenario. You need to have the flies going in front and past the fish.

I hope this helps change your (and other's) perspective on the New Zealand rig. If you alter your style or set up a little bit, it is a snag free fish catching machine.

McA

 

[JeffK]

I'm not really sure why this is, but it certainly seems like it does in my observations. The engineer in me thinks it has to be a result of the two nymphs being aligned exactly with the leader and each other. For example, watch when your leader crosses the back of a fish. Normally, if you slack off the leader the flies go right over the back and down to the tail. With a NZ rig the hook points will be lined up with the leader and can dig in as they slide along the fishes back. With stiff tag lines the hooks don't exactly line up and start flopping about with a slack line - there is no water velocity to want them to line up and dig in. That's what I theorize.

It probably has more to do with the clear water than the crowding - at the Pequest or Little Lehigh it is almost always sight fishing. Whenever you can see fish a high percentage of your drifts will be right in their face and if they don't take then the fly or leader can slide by them. I don't see a real difference when blind fishing, but when sight fishing unless you can consistently get to the near side of the fish's face (I can't) then the leader will slide over a fish's back if presentation is good enough to not spook the fish, but too poor for him to take - which to bulk of my fishing in these special regs areas.

 

[JeffK]

McAwful,
We posted at the same time. All your points are great. Some of the good fishermen I have seen do a downward set. I just can't get myself to do that and when I get excited I sometimes forget the side or back set and am guilty of yank em out of the water set - usually resulting in a lost fish and my rig dangling from a tree branch. Same thing with LLS fishing. The standard is a strip set, and only drive the hook home once you feel the rod load. Usually takes me a few fish to remember that. Problem is that LLS fishing I only get a couple strikes on a good day.

 

[quality time]

It probably has more to do with the clear water than the crowding - at the Pequest or Little Lehigh it is almost always sight fishing. Whenever you can see fish a high percentage of your drifts will be right in their face and if they don't take then the fly or leader can slide by them. I don't see a real difference when blind fishing, but when sight fishing unless you can consistently get to the near side of the fish's face (I can't) then the leader will slide over a fish's back if presentation is good enough to not spook the fish, but too poor for him to take - which to bulk of my fishing in these special regs areas.

I still think the rig is getting an undeserved bad rap here. In clear water cases the problem is more likely due to the inexperienced / overzealous fly fisherman, not the rig. Whenever you can see the fish, you can snag one with any rig, even a single nymph.

 

[AKSkim]

Charlie Meck's index has three page numbers where he references setting the hook (p. 20, 71, 87).

Basically he states if you see a trout near your sub surface fly and it opens its mouth.. set the hook. If your dry fly is used as a strike indicator, don't rely on it to tell you a trout had taken and spit out your dropper.

Now I am puzzled...

Why did I spend $16.95 for something so advanced as this book????

OR !

Maybe there is a hidden message in there...

Wow.. I have more questions.. not a single answer but questions... starting to feel a little like Buckwheat in that regard.

As always, able to rely on the members of NEFF for some solid advise.

AK Skim
Bestest of the Best Friend of BigBow Slapshot

 

[Corndog]

Jeff;

You provided some very interesting insight into the possibility of snagging with a dropper.

Never even considered such an item.

Thanks.

AK,

Any rig can be a "snagging machine" if so desired...well maybe not a dry fly fished on surface.

I think I've accidently foul hooked maybe 5 trout in my lifetime on a dropper rig. It's just as easy to foul hook one swinging or bouncing a nymph on the bottom.

Maybe one who foul hooks alot of fish with a dropper should consider their fishing technique as the culprit as opposed to the rig.

Cdog

 

[AKSkim]

Maybe one who foul hooks alot of fish with a dropper should consider their fishing technique as the culprit as opposed to the rig. Cdog

Corndog;

As you have well seen fishing the Salmon River during salmon season...

Yankers... just ripping their line threw a pool or run. If you have to resort to that, why even fish? I bet the cost for traveling up there, lodging, per diem would cost less than going to a fish store and buying salmon.

As always, ethical fishing... can't beat it.

AK Skim
NEFF's own Best Friend to BigBow Slapshot.
Also, wondering what time they drop the puck on Friday.. hint..hint..

 

[Corndog]

If you gents are going to stand on your theories of multiple hooks increase ones chances of foul hooked fish, then our fly fishing forefathers must have been "snaggers".

I recently read an article about fly fishing methods of old, where guys would put as many as 11 flies on their line. I think it was in American Angler. I can look for it if anyone is interested.

Cdog

 

[Corndog]

Corndog;

As you have well seen fishing the Salmon River during salmon season...

Yankers... just ripping their line threw a pool or run. If you have to resort to that, why even fish? I bet the cost for traveling up there, lodging, per diem would cost less than going to a fish store and buying salmon.

As always, ethical fishing... can't beat it.

AK Skim
NEFF's own Best Friend to BigBow Slapshot.
Also, wondering what time they drop the puck on Friday.. hint..hint..

Well...today I would agree with you...but, 10+ years back, on my first SR adventure, I was taught to snag salmon like so many others and had fun doing it. I was told, "Hey that's the only way to hook them and besides ...everyone else is doing it. Just look around." But I know better now.

Put 20 guys in a pool, fly fishermen included (noone from NEFF of course), full of freshly stocked breeders and I know for a fact many of those fish will come in tail first. I see it year after year on the BFB.

Cdog

 

[JeffK]

I would say Meck's advise is pretty good. If you watch people fish at a place like the Little Lehigh or Pequest you will see plenty of times where fish take and spit out a fly and not disturb the indicator. I think in some hands the indicator can make your results worse since it can take your focus away from the fish. Watching the fish is always the best course. You can learn a lot even if they don't take your fly that way.

The indicator comes into its own when you can't see the fish, and then the strikes can often be real subtle, like a simple side motion or even a lift strike, because the water is usually on the deeper side and the leader has plenty of room to move around. Lift strike - if a trout takes a nymph and by doing so takes the weight of the nymph and maybe a split shot the indicator can float a little higher. Don't wait for the "bobber" to go down.

 

[Corndog]

The indicator comes into its own when you can't see the fish, and then the strikes can often be real subtle, like a simple side motion or even a lift strike, because the water is usually on the deeper side and the leader has plenty of room to move around. Lift strike - if a trout takes a nymph and by doing so takes the weight of the nymph and maybe a split shot the indicator can float a little higher. Don't wait for the "bobber" to go down.

Yes exactly and to add...a strike sometimes will only make the indicator hesitate for a split second. Your eyes must be locked on the indicator or you will miss many takes.

Personally I try not to site fish, so I don't see the fish take my nymph. Fishing this way makes the indicator a very handy tool to identify a take and to keep my nymph off the bottom.

Cdog

 

[JeffK]

I'm the opposite - I try to sight fish as much as possible. Everybody has their own style and its best to work one way and not get watching too many things at once.

I have read about those 11 or 12 fly rigs, but view that with a grain of salt. Most of the old writers that ring true to me (Thaddeus Norris in US, WC Stewart, Pritt, etc) used three flies since more can than that can be a PITA. One of them (I forget which) made the comment that if you can't catch them with one fly then you probably wouldn't do so well with 11 either.

Finally, I don't think snagging is a real issue except at spots where there are bunches of large easily visible fish. The temptation is too much for more fishermen than we like to admit. I fly fish and teach fly fishing more than most amateurs and I do like to needle the fly fishing "elite". Being an old grouch it rubs me the wrong way when I hear fly guys say they never snag fish and C&R with no mortality - all those dead fish must be from the spin fishermen. Even with a fly, fishing is a blood sport and puncturing a mouth with a sharp metal object, making them fight for their life, and "air boarding" them for removal of odd hook sets, pictures etc is going to push a few over the edge no matter how careful you are and whether they swim away or not. Just trying to keep it real in a world with too much bluster.

 

[dominicleckie]

I also find it much easier to let the water load of the bar. What I find funny, I always seem to catch fish on the lower gear. Almost never at the top. I've even changed a little with them the same results.