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Welcome back to the new NEFF. Take a break from Twitter and Facebook. You don't go to Dicks for your fly fishing gear, you go to your local fly fishing store. Enjoy!

Before it's banished to the back room(or at least, a side room)...

Future Fanatic

Future Fanatic

Nirvana
... can someone from FUDR answer these?

1. How is the plan for the next three years WORSE than what had been in place for the last five? Please, be specific.

2. And if it's not worse, why all the alarm about the imminent demise of the fishery when seemingly all the people pushing for 600 say the upper Delaware is a world class fishery NOW (without any help from the water barons)?

3. What is the estimate (that some expert must have thought about) for AVERAGE flows on the WB and MS, given a MINIMUM 600cfs flow on the WB.

Thanks for your time.
John
 
Dennis,

If the water, at some point, gets too uncomfortable for the trout they will move! It's not like they must or do stay in one area and the heated water will become dangerous. The trout will migrate to where the water is cooler and more trout friendly. They(DEC) did tracking studies that proved trout migrate as much as 25 miles. So, the end results are that the trout go to more conducive water and the area where the water gets hot becomes a warmwater fishery.

"Better" to some people means that they want the entire length of the mainstem to be a trout fishery. I have no idea what releases are required for that but maybe those releases will be too high and/or too cold on the stems that they'll result in poor conditions, especially for wading fishermen. 1500 cfs on the west branch at Hales Eddy may be good for drift boats, guides and cooler water down the mainstream but it has a price. If, at Hale's Eddy, the water is at that level, at that speed and the temperature is @ 45-50%, that does not make for a good fishery as far as the non boater is concerned and probably inhibits rising/feeding trout.

So what if the water gets warm dowmstream on the mainstem. It's always been that way and the trout fishermen there will simply have to travel a little. Of course maybe some organization will push for more accesses and the mainstem fishermen won't have to be as dependent on drift boats to get them into the water. Then again, that doesn't correlate with the financial interests of the landowning fishing businesses or the guides. Therefore, it may not be a high, or even a low, priority.

Allan
 
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As I read more and more about this plan it reminds of another article that I read a few weeks ago. It actually has to do with a stream in New Jersey where a quarry is shutting down the pumps that keep a flow downstream. Something was metioned in that post that what the quarry is actually doing is creating an artificial fishery. The way that I see it with all of the control of flows and temperatures what both of the groups in this case is exactly the same thing. Another artificial fishery. Just the way that I see it.
 
Originally posted by Alan Podell, member Catskill Guild of Fly Tyers and talented tyer of a nice Hendrickson Compardun that my client nailed a nice 18 inch wild brown on last year - who incredibly said the following...


{"So what if the water gets warm downstream on the mainstem. It's always been that way and the trout fishermen there will simply have to travel a little. Of course maybe some organization will push for more accesses and the mainstem fishermen won't have to be as dependent on drift boats to get them into the water. Then again, that doesn't correlate with the financial interests of the landowning fishing businesses or the guides. Therefore, it may not be a high, or even a low, priority."}

Allan
Click to expand...
...............

Thanks for your consideration Alan.

By the way, NYS DEC considers Callicoon, New York the southern point of the main stem tailwater. So does the NPS and the UDC.

Please...look it up.

If they want to change that designation, then have those agencies change the wording in the regs and bylaws.

Until that day, they have a responsibility to enhance and preserve a coldwater fishery to Callicoon.

Kindest regards,
TR
 
Alan,

Nobody ever said the entire lenght of the main stem, the trout fishery is designated from Hancock to Calicoon.

Also who said anything about 1500 cfs? The number is a 600 release.

Yes some fish will migrate to thermal refuge if they can, I guess you have never seen fish kills on the upper main stem from hancock to calicoon?

This has nothing to do with being able to fish ,wade ,or float its to preserve the wild trout population on the Upper D.

You may want to read the drbc plan, and than take a look at the FUDR website.
 
TR & Joe,

I guess I miss understood a previous post about flows and the definition of 'mainstem'. However, I stand on my position that many of the people who have vested interests in the fishery are pushing for changes (albeit they will help the fishery) for reasons that will lead to personal benefits. You guys seem to seek improvements for everyones benefit. That's great. Unfortunately, there are those who personally benefit. Now that would be just fine with me but not when these people seek public support and then use the profits that support has brought them, buy land and then privatize and post it.

Maybe I'm not saying it as clearly as I should but I hope you get my meaning.

Allan
 
Allan,

I'd like to point out a few things. First, yes... Some fish do migrate, not all.

There are more spots on the WB than Hale Eddy to fish!!!!! The WB is around 20 miles long! Less than a mile away is very easily wadable water up to 2300 or more! At 1800, you can walk across without getting your hips wet!

As far as your 'So What' comment... You're kidding, right?





Mayfly said:
Dennis,

If the water, at some point, gets too uncomfortable for the trout they will move! It's not like they must or do stay in one area and the heated water will become dangerous. The trout will migrate to where the water is cooler and more trout friendly. They(DEC) did tracking studies that proved trout migrate as much as 25 miles. So, the end results are that the trout go to more conducive water and the area where the water gets hot becomes a warmwater fishery.

"Better" to some people means that they want the entire length of the mainstem to be a trout fishery. I have no idea what releases are required for that but maybe those releases will be too high and/or too cold on the stems that they'll result in poor conditions, especially for wading fishermen. 1500 cfs on the west branch at Hales Eddy may be good for drift boats, guides and cooler water down the mainstream but it has a price. If, at Hale's Eddy, the water is at that level, at that speed and the temperature is @ 45-50%, that does not make for a good fishery as far as the non boater is concerned and probably inhibits rising/feeding trout.

So what if the water gets warm dowmstream on the mainstem. It's always been that way and the trout fishermen there will simply have to travel a little. Of course maybe some organization will push for more accesses and the mainstem fishermen won't have to be as dependent on drift boats to get them into the water. Then again, that doesn't correlate with the financial interests of the landowning fishing businesses or the guides. Therefore, it may not be a high, or even a low, priority.

Allan
Click to expand...
 
Dennis,

To clarify: I used 'Hale Eddy' as a point-of-reference since it is one of the most referenced USGS gauges on the west branch.

Then you write'

"The WB is around 20 miles long! Less than a mile away is very easily wadable water up to 2300 or more! At 1800, you can walk across without getting your hips wet!"

Here's what West Branch Angler says about various west branch flows'
"800 - 1000cfs - Moderately difficult wading - some spots are not reachable.
1000 - 1200cfs - Difficult wading - many spots are not reachable by wading.
1200 - 1600cfs - Very difficult wading - most all spots are not reachable. Extreme caution is advised. Pontoon boats ok.
1600 - 2700cfs - Drift Boats Only!
2700 + - Stay home and tie flies!"

So unless you want to take a nice wet and dangerous plunge, I suggest you rethink your wading choices!

JOE T - Like to hear your experienced opinion on wading, and I don't mean hugging the bank, when the flows are 1800 - 2300cfs.
 
Allan,

The "benefit" that's being attempted here is for the fishery, nothing more. And yes, it's an "artificial" fishery, just as Montana's Missouri and Bighorn, New Mexico's San Juan, Arkansas's White, and on and on. These are all Blue Ribbon trout waters. I doubt any of these would have trout without the cold water releases, certainly not the numbers of fish that they currently have (Also, they're releases are way above 600CFS).
Nothing wrong to have one in New York.

Bruce
 
Allan,

What does Allan say about various west branch flows? It's been my experience that I can safely wade most spots I fish at 1600 or more.

Granted, Hale Eddy at over 800 can be difficult to wade, the WB is by far off limits to wading. Those charts in my opinion are for people not familiar with the river who can only find a spot like Hale Eddy (Stop by and get yourself a guide who is more familiar with the river than you are). For someone as experience as you (I've only been fishing the Delaware system for 4 years), this chart should not apply.

Hale eddy is just that, a reference. I use the flow at Hale Eddy as a reference to see where I'll be fishing, not to see if it's ok to fish Hale Eddy. If Hale Eddy is above 1250, that tells me to consider fishing elsewhere, not to not bother to come up for the day because Hale Eddy is difficult to wade. I hope this answers your question to Joe T as well.
 
Since nobody, and there were at least three FUDR supporters that took a gander at these:

1. How is the plan for the next three years WORSE than what had been in place for the last five? Please, be specific.

2. And if it's not worse, why all the alarm about the imminent demise of the fishery when seemingly all the people pushing for 600 say the upper Delaware is a world class fishery NOW (without any help from the water barons)?

3. What is the estimate (that some expert must have thought about) for AVERAGE flows on the WB and MS, given a MINIMUM 600cfs flow on the WB.,

can say that the new plan is WORSE than what was in effect for the past few years, then am I too assume that the FUDR position is not that the new plan is worse, but that it just does not go far enough to protect the Main Stem?

Three years, with a plan, that, in effect, is better than what WAS in place (and created and sustained what we know is a "world class fishery") is too much time to waste? Three years to further study what will probably be needed to best sustain the fishery in the future is too much to ask? A three year plan, because it was supported by some sportsman's groups as well as an environmental group, showing their willingness to work within the system, with all the various political factions to find a solution, is unacceptable?

What do we as fishermen, bring to the table? We have NOTHING to give any of the political concerns involved. A few votes? Do you want to be the "less than informed" politician that gives up water, only to possibly have a few million people not watering their lawns or washing their cars because you did? I'd gamble on a few thousand votes against the millions any day. We can point to the money we bring to the area. SO WHAT?!? As far as any politician should be concered, if NOTHING was given up in terms of any new agreement on flows, the amount of money that had been coming in to the area(in the past) would continue to come in. No gain, but no loss.

I have no idea what will hit the ground after all the chaff blows away, but given that the new plan is no worse than what was in place and it lays a foundation for working with these groups in the future, it is bewildering the amount of in-fighting this topic has caused. Divide and Conquer- it seems we're trying to do that to ourselves.
John
 
Dennis,

I think you unknowingly made one of the points of those that have concerns about the "who and why they" want the 600 MINIMUM flows.

"Granted, Hale Eddy at over 800 can be difficult to wade, the WB is by far off limits to wading. Those charts in my opinion are for people not familiar with the river who can only find a spot like Hale Eddy (Stop by and get yourself a guide who is more familiar with the river than you are). "

John
 
Dennis,

I'd like to know how you can say that when there is a flow of 1800cfs at Hale Eddy, "Less than a mile away is very easily wadable water up to 2300 or more! At 1800, you can walk across without getting your hips wet". You've got to be kidding? Then you say, "If Hale Eddy is above 1250, that tells me to consider fishing elsewhere, not to not bother to come up for the day because Hale Eddy is difficult to wade".

First, let's go to my comment about ACCESS. Aside from Hale Eddy where are you going to have access? PA side to Hancock: The 2 PA Gameland spots and then Balls Eddy. NY side to Hancock: a couple of pull-off from route 17. Below Hancock for several miles on NY side: Bard Parker. PA side for several miles: I think 3 spots and 1 is being challenged by a landowner.

Regardless of the plan adopted, and hopefully it will be successful, if the Delawares are or become the greatest trout fishery in the east, what good does it do to the 'average Joe fisherman' if he/she cannot gain walk-in access to it?

Allan
 
Alan

I can wade the west branch in almost any tail out up to 1500 - 2300 cfs!!!

I can wade many pools along the banks and I AM still able to hit my targets in the foam lines.

FYI At levels of 1500 plus most of the fish are stacked up along the banks and are in the tailouts, and that's where you would want to be.

If anyone would like, I would be more than happy to meet up anywhere anytime on the west and show you how its done at those levels..
 
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Future,
I'll try to answer your questions, but these answers are MY opinion,

1) " How is the plan for the next three years WORSE than what had been in place for the last five? Please, be specific."

Here we're talking about 160 CFS minimum RELEASE compared to 225 CFS minimum FLOW measured at Hale Eddy. Which one is better is hard to say. There will be times when one is better than the other, but neither one would be better at all times. For instance, during the thermal stress times, when Oquaga and the tribs between Cannonsville dam and Hale Eddy are additively flowing more than 65 CFS, the 160 CFS minimum RELEASE would be better than the 225 CFS minimum FLOW plan. And if the tribs are flowing less than 65 CFS, then the 225 CFS minimum FLOW would be better. But over the last five years, there have been fish kills on the main stem (more than one that I have heard of). The older 325 CFS minimum RELEASE during the thermal stress months was better than either of these.

2)" And if it's not worse, why all the alarm about the imminent demise of the fishery when seemingly all the people pushing for 600 say the upper Delaware is a world class fishery NOW (without any help from the water barons)?"

I believe I answered the one above. (325 RELEASE was better, as the fish kills could have been a lot worse over the last five years if Mother Nature had given us hotter and drier Summers)

3. "What is the estimate (that some expert must have thought about) for AVERAGE flows on the WB and MS, given a MINIMUM 600cfs flow on the WB. "

I would expect that if there was an agreement to the 600 CFS RELEASE (not flow) on the WB during the thermal stress period, that there would not aften be the need to RELEASE more very often. The average flows at Hale Eddy could be calculated by adding 600 CFS to the AVERAGE of the tribs during the time period we're talking about. The 600 CFS release is the historical AVERAGE release duringthis thermal stress period (from what I understand), so to me there would be no change in what the AVERAGE has historically been. I will try to get the specific number for what the average flow would be at Hale Eddy. I don't have the data in front of me right now.

Bruce
 
Bruce,

Thanks for trying to answer the questions that the FUDR guys seem to be avoiding.

Here are a couple of other points:

A 160 release will still be going down river this summer. The reason for the change to allow that to decrease was in times of cool over flow, the habitat bank can save the extra 100 cfs. From what I understand, this is also when the river master is calling for large releases, the "Conservation Bank" water can decrease from 160 to 60. So if the rivermaster needs to release 1000, the Conservation Bank does not lose wate. This is like getting free water for the fishery. It still comes down to increasing flexibility.

Everyone seems to forget that the reason DEC changed from a 325 release 6/15-8/15 to a release of 160 from 6/1-9/15 was in part due to the outcry of various fishing groups that were concerned that low early June flows were crippling the river. The change in release protocol was to try to get some cool release in early June and late August.

Hot dry summers are the best for the river! That means that the rivermaster will be releasing 800-1400 cfs out of Cannonsville ALL summer. As long as the reservoir refills, that is the best we can get. In a "normal year" we want the reservoirs full on June 1st and not spilling warm water. Then, everything starts to dry up quickly and habitat bank water is released for flow and temperature. Before the bank runs dry, we want the rivermaster to need water for Montague. Then he keeps 600-1400 in the West Branch all summer. What is left of the habitat bank can then be used for minimum flows through the next winter.

I am hopeful that the new permanent solutions will eliminate the need to hope for dry summers. Last year was of course the opposite of what we really needed. Lots of warm natural flow. No need for rivermater releases.

Average flows will go up substantially if a 600 release is mandated on the WB. IF there is a rivermaster requirement of 800, 300, 800, the 600 constant release will increase the average for those 3 days by 100 cfs (800,600,800). That is why we need to change the Montague Target so that we can have a regime of 700,700,700, which will make the fish very happy and still satisfy the Montague target. This is a tough one to explain and understand. I tried my best.
 
Joe,

You're right. I do have to get out and fish more.

I'm curious though, would you expand on your comment about more access points then I mentioned. Those are the only ones I am familiar with through my limited experience. Must have missed others but I'd like to hear where they are.

Not being a smart ass just very interested.

Allan
 
Allan,

Let's say the river at Hale Eddy is 60 feet wide (That's just a guestimate). The water is flowing at 1850 at 60 feet wide. Of course it's illogical and yes, just about impossible to fish Hale Eddy at this rate however, move elsewhere where the stream might be 120 feet wide. You with me here.

I know my comments "not to not" wouldn't make much sense to anyone but me, but I posted it anyway... What I meant was that if Hale Eddy is at 1250, I will fish elsewhere on the WB rather than not to come up and fish the WB at all. 1250 does not deter me from fishing the WB.

As far as access, you've got some spots in the Deposit area that you can fish too. What I do is knock on doors until I find someone willing to let me fish their property. "Pardon me for interrupting while you're eating". :)

Mayfly said:
Dennis,

I'd like to know how you can say that when there is a flow of 1800cfs at Hale Eddy, "Less than a mile away is very easily wadable water up to 2300 or more! At 1800, you can walk across without getting your hips wet". You've got to be kidding? Then you say, "If Hale Eddy is above 1250, that tells me to consider fishing elsewhere, not to not bother to come up for the day because Hale Eddy is difficult to wade".

First, let's go to my comment about ACCESS. Aside from Hale Eddy where are you going to have access? PA side to Hancock: The 2 PA Gameland spots and then Balls Eddy. NY side to Hancock: a couple of pull-off from route 17. Below Hancock for several miles on NY side: Bard Parker. PA side for several miles: I think 3 spots and 1 is being challenged by a landowner.

Regardless of the plan adopted, and hopefully it will be successful, if the Delawares are or become the greatest trout fishery in the east, what good does it do to the 'average Joe fisherman' if he/she cannot gain walk-in access to it?

Allan
Click to expand...
 
Dennis,

Let's see. I asked about access from Hale's Eddy down. Last time I looked, Deposit was upstream. Another thing: H.E. being 60 feet across? Perhaps you should get out a measuring devise. Finally, I have absolutely no idea what the effect of a wider river would have on the flow. I would imagine that depth and shape of the river would have some effect as well. Regardless, if WBAs identify certain flow speeds as being hazzardous to wade in and Al Caucci's DRC posts this wading information:
"1500-2500 - the river really changes character at this level. Wading is really not possible, but floating the river can yield really nice fishing."
I'll take their cautions as accurate and disregard your statement about not getting your hips wet. Now this mean 'wading', not walking the bank.
 
Allan,

I know it's more than 60ft across. That's not the point I was trying to make though.

The point is that if you have an area of water that is 60 feet across at 3feet deep, and another area that is 120 feet across and also 3 feet deep, with the same amount of water flowing through it... Do I really have to explain this?

As to your remark:
Regardless, if WBAs identify certain flow speeds as being hazzardous to wade in and Al Caucci's DRC posts this wading information:
"1500-2500 - the river really changes character at this level. Wading is really not possible, but floating the river can yield really nice fishing."
Click to expand...
If I have a piece of sidewalk and I dump a bucket of paint over it, than that piece of sidewalk has changed character. This doesn't make it impossible for me to keep my feet free of paint. Knowing how to use my two feet, I walk over the painted sidewalk and continue onto my destination. What you're doing, Allan, is looking at a chart posted on a business's website and saying, "It's there, it must be perfect." If I posted a message on this site telling you that all rivers will be closed for 2 weeks for river maintenance, what would you say?

Allan, the charts you look at obviously reflect where the readings are taken. Get out a little and fish other areas. Sometimes everything posted on the internet is not perfect. For an example, "Stay away from the Neversink Gorge, I came back to my car and there was sh#t all over it, bears were chasing me through the woods, the quicksand almost gobbled me up, Indians hide out in trees looking to scalp innocent fly fishermen..."
 
Alan

Both flyshops give numbers on wading and they are very conseravative, since inexperieced anglers may not know the river and get seriously injured. I would think that there's some liabilty if one of the shops posted on their website that wading at 2500 cfs is the norm.

It's not normal per say and it takes experience and you have to know where you can fish.

Why dont you call a few shops and tell them that you're very experienced and ask them what tailouts or sections they would reccomend you to wade at levels of 2000 cfs? I bet their answer is different than on line.

Access, don't tell me you look for little brown signs that say dec access park here! :)

I would never tell you or anyone here on line (offline I would) how and where I fish. There are at least a dozen locations that are not marked as "access".

Go fish the river as I have from top to bottom on both sides for a for years(not once now) and figure it out as I have and many others as well.

I FISH AND WADE THE WEST BRANCH (NOT THE BANKS) UP TO 2500 CFS IN MANY TAILOUTS OF THE RIVER.


And catch fish!!!!!!:D
 
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Perhaps I've misread some statements on here but here are my thoughts
If the river master calls for 800 300 800 over a 3 day period to reach the Montague target but instead releases 800 600 800 what has been lost? The yo yo effect from a 500 cfs change in both directions is now a 200 cfs change. Less dramatic changes are better for the fishery.
We would gain an extra 300 cfs on the middle day to help protect the upper main. I feel that's a good thing.

The daily flow would be 600 cfs + feeders and rainfall. You would have higher flows if the rivermaster needed water but that is what would happen under normal conditions anyway. 600- 2000 is wadable (I only like to wade or float when the river is cool enough to not stress the fish)

Hot dry summers are best for the river, when PPL is not releasing to meet the Montague target. Keep in mind that they do not release for a 24 hour period. They release for a portion of the day and then average the release into a 24 hour period. During the times they are not releasing the Montague target must be met. Yo Yo releases./ What are the limits to what PPL can release?
Jeff White
 
Fanatic,

Please read the DRBC plan, then please read all of the concerns from the FUDR.

If you would just take the time to read the concerns release from the friends, you will find that the answers to your questions are already out there for you and well thought out I might add, and very specific.

You have my phone number if you would like to call me.

JOE.T
Tight Lines.
 
Joe,

Please re-post the answers to those questions since I am not sure I have seen the FUDR position.

Thanks,

Jim
 
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Jim Serio said:

"...I am not sure I have seen the FUDR position."
Click to expand...
........

After all this time and you haven't read the position paper.

FUDR has a website where you can review it.

www.fudr.org
 
Jim

Theres a concern "press release" that was put out by the FUDR that was put out a couple of weeks ago that I am sure you have read.

It goes into great detail as to WHY the fudr is opposed to the plan,and why they feel it has serious flaws.

I will pull up the post so you all can take a look at it agian.

JOE
 
Joe (and everyone else),

I'm a nobody. I've lived up here for over twenty years, but have only been flyfishing the Delaware system for two. I accept that there are hundreds if not thousands of people that understand the system much more than I. I belong to neither one of the groups that are currently sparring over who cares more or who knows what the best thing is for the system . I'm not sure what is being "gotten at" when I'm asked if I have been speaking to anyone from the DRF. If you must know, I spoke to Jim once. It was at the picnic on the Delaware in Hancock. He never brought up the FUDR, never spoke about flow issues and never even asked me to join the DRF. Our conversation was about knotweed because I have some experience with it and I actually had some doubts as to it's threat, but I think, that that's not the conversation you thought I had been a part of.

As anyone can see by my questions, I'm having a hard time understanding why the debate has become so heated. There have been so many pointed questions and comments at Jim, by people that I assume had been standing with him so few months ago. Not understanding why the "new plan" is worse than what had been in place, I, as I would hope others would, wonder why this 600cfs factor is so critical. If the "new plan is ANY better than what has been in place in the past, fishing will be as "Blue Ribbon" or "World Class" as it has EVER been. So AGAIN, I wonder why the FUDR crowd is so adamant about the 600cfs. I hear "temps on the MS". OK. So, now that this "plan" is in place, work on that. It seems to me that this USGS study will help determine what is best for the ecosystem. 200, 400, 600 or 1000 does anyone know? What will NYC agree to? Jersey, Pennsylvania or whoever else has a stake? Who is now in a better position to work with these groups?

Having stated that I still wonder why (with a better plan in place) the FUDR guys are so steadfast in their defense of the 600cfs number, I have to look at other reasons for it. Sure, guides and resorts have boats to fill, but it is also surprising to me, the number of individuals that would be able to get their own craft or their pals crafts on the water for a significantly longer period of the season (all of it). Fly Tier mentioned floating, I've seen Joe T. in a boat along with bjmiller, and hell even Dennis was out on the D. They are all people that support the FUDR. Hmmm. Am I suggesting that something nefarious is going on here? Not really :). But as a guy who wades, I have concerns that the level of discharge being fought for is not so much based on what is best for the ENTIRE system, but for the main stem, so waders fishing the WB, be damned. In addition, if a 600cfs release financially helps out some fishing entrepreneurs, I don't expect them to bring up the plight of "local (or non-local) wader hobbyist trout fishermen". That does not help their bottom line.

Now about sounding like "some one else" while expressing my views, I think I know whom you mean, and that just plain hurts, Joe :). I've been around here long enough for you to see, that I OFTEN try to be the Devil's Advocate. I try very hard to show the other side of many debates. Whether that is about defending us locals, debating casinos or even defending you on occasion. Please don't question my logic or rational thought now, just because I may be questioning (this time) something you believe in. It is NOT personal. I have NOTHING TO GAIN by questioning anyone's stance. Pissing off people gains me nothing either, so you can forget that I have an "agenda" or that I am trying to tick you or anyone else off, just to do it. I still entertain hopes of fishing with a few of you folks that are aligned with FUDR. If for no other reason than to find out some places to wade on the WB after these three years are up. J

My bottom line: I want to be able to fish a healthy river. I want to be able to have the best opportunities to do so. I don't want people to back any plan, just for the purpose of it benefiting themselves financially at the expense of the opportunities for others. I want all fishermen to have the best opportunities to enjoy the system available to them.

John

Now, how about the question of access...
 
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