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Hale Eddy / WB Del. River

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The new plan is working! Yeah right.

What a joke!

This is exactly why the new plan is for the birds.Fishing on all the branches and the main stem is over for now,and at this pace will be taking pics of dead floating fish!


Fanatic

I hope some of the dots are finally starting to connect for you.
 
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You guys are too much. When the temps were high the past two summers, who did you blame then? Was it Jim or "the plan"? Of course not. It seems to me that the powers that be are the ones that you should be directing this at. You guys just seem to focus on your arch nemesis, as if he is the one at the controls. It seems "the plan" included provisions for relief when the temps increased, yes? Isn't there also a provision for bottom releases when the reservoirs are spilling? Has that been followed? If your great 640cfs plan were in place, would NYC,DEP,DEC, etc. be following that, as well as they are following the rules, now? And if they didn't follow the 640cfs plan then, could I complain that it is FUDR's fault?

Isn't there a FUDR supporter now in place as some sort of expert or consultant? Found it:
"At FUDR's request and after having reviewed the credentials of Robert Bachman, PhD, (Bob is the Director of FUDR's Research Group), Rep. Maurice Hinchey (D-NY) has recommended Bob's appointment to the Delaware River Basin Commissions, Sub Committee on Ecological Flows (SEF)."
(As an aside, does FUDR support the DRBC and/or the SEF, now? I mean as fisher folk, are they good guys or bad guys, now?)
Is Mr. Bachman speaking out (NOW) to the right people to get the "bumps out of the road"? It seems that somebody on the Sub Committee on Ecological Flows should have some sway. And how about FUDR's obvious friend Maurice Hinchey, can't HE make sure the powers that be follow the rules? It almost seems as if maybe some want "the plan" to fail miserably?

Of course, now is the time to "let me have it"...
John
 
Future

Your response is very well stated!!!

Not sure if everyone realizes that directing their anger at Big Spinner or yourself will never be the right answer. STOP fighting each other and get together or neither group will be happy with the end result!!!!!
 
John and all,

Some good news. Looks like more water is being RELEASED now. Hale Eddy peaked at just over 71 degrees yesterday and Callicoon was more than 73. Looking at the graph for Hale Eddy, it looks like they increased the amount of RELEASED water by approximately 300 CFS. Temp at Hale Eddy dropped to 10.9 degrees C at 4:45am (which is 51.6 F) and was still dropping. I applaud this and hope it continues!!!

P.S. This did not have to be done via the old or new plan but because of the weather (90s again today) it should be done.

Bruce
 
Bruce, you seemed to be well versed in the various plans/regs/practices, so can you tell me what precipitated/allowed/forced the release of 300cfs? I mean, if not "the plan", was some one just being nice (or practical)? Thanks.
John
 
Wow, this is so "cool".:p In the past we would see river conditions like yesterday almost every June. We had to suffer until 6/15. Now we have all this thermal protection and the temps are plummeting. I LOVE IT! Tomorrow should be cloudy with lingering showers most of the day. I'll be on the Main Stem for sure, and spending money in Hancock. Say hi if you see me. I'll be the funny looking guy with a big smile on my face. :D
 
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John,

No "trigger" under the new plan was reached. But with the heat today is supposed to bring, I would expect the Hankins max temp trigger would have been hit. It had been hit or very close to hit about 3 weeks ago without any "extra" water being released, so it's good to see it now. Good to see some foresight instead of hindsight. We're supposed to get some cooler weather starting tomorrow, so I also expect the cold water release will diminish after today. Depending on how much rain we get, it could lead to more warm water spillage. We'll see what happens. Would not like to see too much yo-yo effect in the releases, though.

Bruce
 
I understand your point about the "yo-yo" releases. With the water from the East Branch mixing in, the Main Stem obviously is impacted less by the yo-yo releases than the West Branch, which bears the brunt of it, but are the negative effects of yo-yo releases significant by the time they get to the mainstem?

Maybe this "foresight" bodes well for the future? Keep those fingers crossed...
John
 
Flow Rate for Bottom Release from Cannonsville at 9:20 a.m.:

----- 426 cfs

Flow Rate for Spillage from top of Cannonsville at 9:20 a.m.:

----- 130 cfs

DEP FlowRate for WestBranch of Delaware: (845) 295 - 1006

HLR
 
Joe,

I won't be fishing tonight. I'm through until late August or September, hopefully.
Good luck to you!

Bruce
 
If any of you guys EVER see a fish kill because of the warm temps, please email me ASAP.
 
CR, take your camera and a reporter! I would think that pictures of dead fish floating or laying in a pool some where, would do wonders in terms of getting a whole new segment of the general population to put some pressure on NYC if it wound up in a newspaper article.
John
 
As a new member of this forum, let me state that I am disappointed over the bickering that is present among the folks who all , I believe, have the same goal..that is, the improvement of the tailwater fisheries. That said, let me say that the only folks that are happy about this state of affairs are the folks from NYC..remember that England established a world empire by assuring that the different factions of a colony fought each other (like in India) rather than banding together to fight the real enemy.
What I do know is this: NYC holds all the cards, and given that basic fact there are two ways to approach the problem: either through a cooperative effort, or through the court system.
NYC has made their position clear: They will give the fishery ~20,000 cfs days to manage all three rivers: WB, EB, and Neversink...and when that water is gone, tough luck. So if you want to start using that water now, good luck when its July and August. (BTW, the argument that the average flow on the WB has historically been 600 cfs is interesting, but note that NYC would probably agree to that since they would provide 1200 cfs this year, and 0 cfs next year..and we could all go take up golf and NYC's "problem" with the fishermen is over.
Approach #2 is take them to court...fine and dandy, but I believe a reasonable estimate for this approach to be about $5 million...so...SHOW ME THE MONEY.
The "new flow regime" being studied by the SEF should be looked at like a safety net...nothing more or less..which will, in my opinion, improve the EB and Neversink more than the WB, since the WB has benefited from the Montague target releases.
That said, what are the ideas for moving forward, with an eye on the real "foe"??
 
I think that moving forward continues to work with NYC and all the parties to arrive at mutually agreeable solutions.

One of these will be to increase storage on the reservoirs to benefit the fishery and habitat.

Steps are in motion to make this happen. We should not wait for studies to be completed. Lets shorten the time frame to arrive at permanent solutions by as much as we can.
 
Jim,

If the storage increase is agreed to (don't know how long this would take to agree to), is there any estimate on how long it would take to make those changes?

And concerning the studies, are they going to answer the question "What are the optimum flows to produce the most trout?" (This figure might be much more than even the FUDR numbers.) The studies should answer the question "How much water is available for the trout fishery in the reservoir system without impacting all the other parties involved?" , but I don't know if that will be addressed.

Bruce
 
Jim,

I missed last night's hubbub and read this thread first. My 2nd question was somewhat covered in the lower thread under TROUT CONSERVATION, you can answer it here again if you want or not. Thanks.

Bruce
 
Hi Bruce,

I am not sure of a time frame for the reservoir storage issue. It will take time, which is why we need to keep it moving.

The USGS study should be able to answer that question. What the results will look like is movie of the river bottom. As you move forward in the movie you will be able to see the preferred areas for various trout stages change. The numbers may actually be higher than what FUDR is asking for and that is why I do not think we should be locked in to a specific number. This is the major reason that DRF will not support a constant 600 release. There may also be times when 600 is too much. If you have high natural flows and add 600 reelease extra to it, I can see there may be too much water for juvenile fish or fry and you may wipe out a year class. The study should also be able to keep track of critical times and flow issues for spawning, fry and juvenile habitat.

I think that the "how much is available question without impacting others" has already been answered. The down basin states and NYC took 2 years to agree to the modest increase in habitat bank water, because they felt they would be impacted. That is one reason why increasing storage will be key to truly improving fisheries. Remember, even the 5700 cfs-days from the down basin states is a "loan" for 3 years. There is no guarantee it will be available at the end of the current plan.
 
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