USGS study draft plan

[Big_Spinner]

Hi,

Check out the DRF website to see the USGS study plan for the mapping and flow study. This is an earlier version of the study, there have been a few minor modifications to the plan since this was developed.

Dennis,

Can you download the plan and add it to the DRF list on the left please!? Thanks

Jim

 

[ddawatson]

What is the status of the following USGS Delaware Flow Study?

BRD * Upper Delaware River Basin Environmental Flows Study

"Upper Delaware River Basin Environmental Flows Study

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BRD * Upper Delaware River Basin Environmental Flows Study
Metadata:
Identification_Information
Data_Quality_Information
Metadata_Reference_Information

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Identification_Information:
Citation:
Citation_Information:
Originator: U.S. Geological Survey, Fort Collins Science Center (FORT)
Publication_Date: Unpublished material
Title: BRD * Upper Delaware River Basin Environmental Flows Study
Geospatial_Data_Presentation_Form: project
Description:
Abstract:
New York City's Delaware system impounds Delaware River tributaries in three reservoirs: Cannonsville Reservoir on the West Branch, Pepacton Reservoir on the East Branch, and the Neversink Reservoir on the Neversink River. Approximately 725,985 AF/yr is diverted out of the Delaware Basin from these reservoirs through the Delaware Aqueduct. The Delaware River Basin Compact, which became law in 1961, created the Delaware River Basin Commission (DRBC) to manage water resources of the basin and to help resolve regional resource conflicts without returning to court. The DRBC is made up of the governors from the states of Delaware, New Jersey, New York, and Pennsylvania, and a federal represented appointed by the President. Using its authority, the DRBC funded a ?Flow Needs Study? designed to define flow related issues, provide tools (featuring a flow simulation model called OASIS), and recommend additional study needs to help resolve interstate flow management issues. This study identified many cases where the technical basis for flow management decisions required strengthening. One such area is the updating of ecologically based flow relationships for the Upper Delaware main stem and tributaries. The recent discovery of several colonies of Dwarf Wedgemussel, an endangered species, on the Upper Main Stem Delaware has highlighted the need for additional ecological assessment of the flow regime. There are a number of operational and management factors which affect the flow regime in the Upper Delaware Basin. Among these are the Montague flow target formula, minimum NYC reservoir releases, NYCDEP reservoir management decisions, the reservoir operating rule curves, and reservoir capacity. Montague flow target: During normal conditions as defined by the operating rule curves, New York City can divert up to 800 million gallons a day (2,456 AF) out of the three reservoirs as long as a Delaware River flow target of 1,750 cubic feet per second (cfs) is met at the Montague, NJ gage. New York City must comply with this direction, but may use any of the three Upper Delaware reservoirs to do so, making the low flow regime in the upper Delaware and tributaries highly variable. Minimum releases: New York State Department of Environmental Conservation (DEC) regulations require minimum releases from the three reservoirs for conservation purposes. During periods of drought watch, drought warning, and drought as defined by the operating rule curves, both flow targets and minimum releases would be reduced under the proposal. In addition, thermal releases are also made when needed to protect coldwater fisheries below the reservoirs. Rule curves: The rule curves defining drought watch, warning and drought conditions represent a seasonal water allocation of NYC reservoir storage among the decree parties. Drought or drought warning operations have been invoked frequently in recent history, resulting in frequent enforcement of the basic conservation release and abnormally low flows for extended periods of time. Reservoir capacity: Reservoir spills result when large runoff events occur when the reservoir is full or nearly full. Under natural conditions, peak flows would normally occur in April and May in response to snowmelt runoff. Attenuation of peaks is greatest in the Neversink River and least in the West Branch due to differences in reservoir capacity and inflow.
Purpose:
Program - Fisheries: Aquatic and Endangered Resources Goal 4 Aquatic Species and Habitats -Quantify and describe functional relationships among aquatic species and habitats to provide information to conserve or restore aquatic community function. Goal 5 Aquatic Species at Risk - Provide science support to natural resource managers by investigating the factors that contribute to the conservation and recovery of aquatic species at risk. Goal 6 Research Support and Technical Assistance - Enhance research capabilities and technical assistance to provide research support to DOI bureaus, other government agencies, Tribes, and NGO's for application in natural resource management problem solving and decision making. Objective: Identification of environmental flows for the Neversink, East and West Branch of the Delaware Rivers. Continuation of the project initiated January 2004. The USGS' involvement in the Upper Delaware is a the result of Congressional funding directed towards the study of instream habitat needs in the Upper Delaware. This project was proposed for federal funding by a coalition of non-profit groups (inluding The Nature Conservancy, Trout Unlimited, and the Delaware River Foundation) and supported by the Delaware River Basin Commission. The study plan was developed in conjunction with the Subcommittee on Ecological Flows for the Delaware Basin (SEF). SEF's goal is to ?to develop ecological flow requirements for the maintenance or restoration of healthy self-sustaining and managed aquatic ecosystems in the Delaware Basin.? The goal of the present study is provide information relating instream habitat and streamflow to fill data gaps that currently exist in the OASIS model. Specifically, the objectives of the study are: 1) the quantification of habitat metrics over a range of discharges and seasons at selected locations in the three tributaries and mainstem Delaware, 2) development and calibration of a network-wide temperature simulation model for the upper Delaware River basin, and 3) development of a prototype decision support system to assist DRBC and other stakeholders to analyze and interpret water management and reservoir operations alternatives.
Supplemental_Information:
Information used to prepare this metadata was extracted from FORT entries in the USGS BASIS+ database for 832798A.22.0 on 11/15/2005
Time_Period_of_Content:
Time_Period_Information:
Range_of_Dates_Times:
Beginning_Date: 20031001
Ending_Date: 20070930
Currentness_Reference: Observed
Status:
Progress: In work
Maintenance_and_Update_Frequency: As needed
Spatial_Domain:
Description_of_Geographic_Extent: United States, New York, NY
Bounding_Coordinates:
West_Bounding_Coordinate: -79.76347
East_Bounding_Coordinate: -71.85608
North_Bounding_Coordinate: 45.01111
South_Bounding_Coordinate: 40.50656
Keywords:
Theme:
Theme_Keyword_Thesaurus: None
Theme_Keyword: rivers
Theme_Keyword: stream
Theme_Keyword: modeling
Theme_Keyword: dams
Theme_Keyword: decision support systems
Theme_Keyword: ecosystems
Theme_Keyword: aquatic ecosystems
Theme_Keyword: habitat
Theme_Keyword: endangered species
Theme_Keyword: river system management
Theme_Keyword: water quality
Place:
Place_Keyword_Thesaurus: None
Place_Keyword: United States
Place_Keyword: New York
Place_Keyword: NY
Access_Constraints: Contact principal investigator after completion of project
Use_Constraints: Contact principal investigator after completion of project
Point_of_Contact:
Contact_Information:
Contact_Person_Primary:
Contact_Person: Bovee, Ken D.
Contact_Organization: U.S. Geological Survey, Fort Collins Science Center (FORT)
Contact_Address:
Address_Type: mailing and physical
Address: U.S. Geological Survey, Fort Collins Science Center (FORT)
Address: 2150 Centre Avenue, Bldg C
City: Fort Collins
State_or_Province: CO
Postal_Code: 80526-8118
Country: USA
Contact_Voice_Telephone: (970) 226-9100
Contact_Facsimile_Telephone: (970) 226-9230
Cross_Reference:
Citation_Information:
Originator: Bovee, K.D
Publication_Date: 2005
Title:
USGS workshop: linking hydrological change and ecological response in streams and rivers of the eastern United States, February 8-10, 2005, Herndon, VA
Geospatial_Data_Presentation_Form: Abstract
Publication_Information:
Publication_Place: Herndon, VA
Publisher: U.S. Geological Survey
Other_Citation_Details: 1 pp.
Larger_Work_Citation:
Citation_Information:
Originator: Information not in the FORT Pubs database system
Publication_Date: 2005
Title:
USGS workshop: linking hydrological change and ecological response in streams and rivers of the eastern United States, February 8-10, 2005, Herndon, VA
Geospatial_Data_Presentation_Form:
USGS workshop: linking hydrological change and ecological response in streams and rivers of the eastern United States, February 8-10, 2005, Herndon, VA
Publication_Information:
Publication_Place: Herndon, VA
Publisher: U.S. Geological Survey
Other_Citation_Details: 1 pp.
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--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Data_Quality_Information:
Logical_Consistency_Report: Unknown
Completeness_Report: Unknown
Lineage:
Methodology:
Methodology_Type: Field and/or lab
Methodology_Description:
Collect bathymetric, habitat and discharge data for 11 sites in the Upper Delaware River (UDR) system. Prepare streambed topography, computational mesh and 2-D model input files, and simulate 12 - 15 unmeasured discharges for each site. Prepare GIS-based habitat maps for 10 - 12 habitat classes for each simulated discharge. Compile information from the habitat maps into functional relationships between habitat class metrics and discharge. Assemble these relationships in a DSS to display the results of alternative operating regimes for the UDR.
Process_Step:
Process_Description:
Program - Fisheries: Aquatic and Endangered Resources Goal 4 Aquatic Species and Habitats -Quantify and describe functional relationships among aquatic species and habitats to provide information to conserve or restore aquatic community function. Goal 5 Aquatic Species at Risk - Provide science support to natural resource managers by investigating the factors that contribute to the conservation and recovery of aquatic species at risk. Goal 6 Research Support and Technical Assistance - Enhance research capabilities and technical assistance to provide research support to DOI bureaus, other government agencies, Tribes, and NGO's for application in natural resource management problem solving and decision making. Objective 1: Quantification of habitat metrics over a range of discharges. A. Complete collection of bathymetric data for remaining sites. We anticipate collection of the remaining bathymetric data for two mainstem Delaware River sites and one Neversink site during May, 2005. B. Complete habitat maps for all sites and simulated flows by October, 2005. Objective 2. Development and calibration of a network-wide temperature simulation model for the upper Delaware River basin. This task is complete or nearly complete. Objective 3: Development of a prototype decision support system. Work on this objective will begin upon completion of the habitat classification maps for all sites. We are exploring the feasibility of posting results from DSS runs to the Delaware River NBII layer.
Process_Date: Not complete
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--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Metadata_Reference_Information:
Metadata_Date: 20051220
Metadata_Contact:
Contact_Information:
Contact_Organization_Primary:
Contact_Organization: U.S. Geological Survey, Fort Collins Science Center (FORT)
Contact_Person: FORT Metadata Specialist
Contact_Address:
Address_Type: mailing and physical
Address: U.S. Geological Survey, Fort Collins Science Center (FORT)
Address: 2150 Centre Avenue, Bldg C
City: Fort Collins
State_or_Province: CO
Postal_Code: 80526-8118
Country: USA
Contact_Voice_Telephone: (970) 226-9100
Contact_Facsimile_Telephone: (970) 226-9230
Metadata_Standard_Name:
FGDC Biological Data Profile of the Content Standard for Digital Geospatial Metadata
Metadata_Standard_Version: FGDC-STD-001.1-1999
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[ddawatson]

I should have read my posting more closely. The study is ending on 09/30/2007 in reference to the following: "Dwarf Wedgemussel, an endangered species, on the Upper Main Stem Delaware has highlighted the need for additional ecological assessment of the flow regime. "

I will ask The Department of Interior, U.S.G.S. for an update today. The contacts are based in Colorado, not my neighboring Washington, DC metro area.

Sincerely,

DTW

 

[Big_Spinner]

Hi Dennis,

This is referencing the USGS DSS model that we have been usung for the last year or so. The model incorporates flow data from OASIS and then comares two different flow/release regimes to each other and calculates the habitat gain or loss due to the change.

Dwarf Wedge mussel habitat is one of the metrics that is examined. There is another study that focused on the DWM that is due to be completed in September. This will add to the knowledge base for the DWM and hopefully let everyone make better decisions based on the results. DWM's need consistant cool water, so it can only help.

The DSS model is in its final stage of review and will be made a public document soon. (IT may be already, it will be psoted to the USGS website.) If anyone would like to play with it, I would be glad to teach you how to use it.

JIm

 

[ddawatson]

I just completed my discussion with USGS about the Flows Study and the impact on the Dwarf Wedge. Here we go:

1.) The study is completed, and will be published as early as Mid-July or at the latest - the end of Federal FY -- i.e. 09/30/2007.

2.) The study is undergoing review of 508 compliancy (to ensure that the general public including "accessible to employees and members of the public with disabilities ") can access this posted research. Additionally, it is undergoing review by the Division of Public Affairs (not sure if I transcribed the proper division title here, but pretty close) before releasing for public review.

3.) No hold-ups are estimated to stop release of documentation.

4.) The study looks at habitat persistence. It maps the intersection of habitat coincidence data trends. There is a trend of flow releases that are impacting the population of the mussels - specifically warm water versus cold water. Mussels like cold water.

5.) DRBC and NPS are closely looking at this study and the relevance of flow releases from the reservoirs.

6.) The nomenclature for the system used is a D.S.S. -- I would call it a Decision Support System. This system created is a software (algorithm) that utilizes the OASIS data model. I mentioned that some feel that the OASIS data model is considered flawed, but was told that the U.S. ARMY Corp of Engineers has reviewed the OASIS model for accuracy.

7.) Spillage has caused a hypolinmentic occurrence. Therefore, they needed to look at the pattern of spillage and bottom releases to gather a more accurate finding.

8.) The "West" side of the river system has a higher occurrence of the mussel population. But quickly diminishes in the main river. There may be a higher density of ground water on that side of the river. The PA side has a higher population rate of mussels.

9.) DRBC (they are "hip to the problem") and NPS are attempting to determine the proper flow rate to minimize flooding and also are looking at this report as well as a baseline for upcoming decisions of releases.

10.) The feeling is that the reservoirs are not large enough to accommodate an optimal flood mitigation program.

11.) Jim Serio has been hired by DRBC to run the OASIS model as a consultant and is highly regarded for his prowess with the current prototype. The final prototype will be released as well for citizen usage also in the near future. (I am under the assumption that this will be released in the same time-frame, but not sure...). The D.S.S. is a computational model, as described above.

12.) The D.S.S. will also assist in showing the impact of the bottom versus top releases on Trout and Shad as well. These are called "Spill Events".

13.) Most importantly, the mussel is considered a federally protected species. THAT IS VERY KEY - LOVE LIVE THE FRESH WATER MUSSEL.

Bon Appetit?

Dennis Watson
Concerned Citizen, Trout Fisherman and Mussel Lover Extraordinaire

 

[Fly Tier]

Dennis Watson,
FOr a look at some of the DSS results we have been evaluating over the past year, visit H-SPHERE I forget which catagory but there is DSS evaluations there. Its a pretty complex model that takes into account the river system in sections. Big Spinner has done litterally hundreds and hundreds of runs modeling various release structures against a base run. Ive taken quite a few of these runs from Jim and compiled them in a more legible format for some who may not understand everything DSS was spitting out. These can be seen at the link above.

DSS is old news.

-larry

 

[ddawatson]

Larry,

Are you also hired by the DRBC as well?

Sincerely,

Dennis Watson

 

[ddawatson]

Mr. Richard Gore at DRBC is graciously allowing me to provide a FOIA request to potentially have access to all contracts and rfp's relating to subcontracting work between DRF and DRBC. I look foward to that opportunity.

 

[FishsEddie]

Maybe I'm naive, but is there a conflict of interest in members of the DRF being paid by the DRBC? If so, please spell out for the rest of us...

 

[ddawatson]

Maybe I'm naive, but is there a conflict of interest in members of the DRF being paid by the DRBC? If so, please spell out for the rest of us...

FishsEddie, unfortunately that seems to be the indication.

According to my conversation with D.O.I. U.S.G.S., and members of various conservation organizations, this seems to be a valid or perceived to be a current relationship. The perception is that this is a conflict of interest that directly focuses on what is the relationship of D.R.F., D.R.B.C. and T.U.?

I am hoping that this IS NOT TRUE.

However, I will also perform a F.O.I.A. request for Trout Unlimited in addition to D.R.F. At this juncture, D.R.B.C. is open to my request and willing to share this documentation. I hope this offer still stands in the near future.

Based upon my research, I will post a copy (or website link) to the gathered F.O.I.A. documents.

Also, I will attempt to setup a meeting with Matt Gillespie at T.U. in Ballston, VA as that is within the same area of D.O.I. clients of which I interface with periodically during the fiscal year.

Sincerely,

Dennis T. Watson
"The truth will set you free...."

 

[ddawatson]

Larry,

Are you also hired by the DRBC as well?

Sincerely,

Dennis Watson

I just came across another thread of interest between D.R.F., and the Truform Fly company as well. Larry owns this company.

Another fact, of which I trying to understand, is that the CP2 Coalition website is: "Website created, hosted and maintained by the Fly Fishing Connection, a Truform™ Fly Co., Inc. property", as stated on the bottom of the following website: Let Your Voice Be Heard by taking action on the Coalition's Delaware River Adaptive Release Policy

So basically, we have a firm that has POTENTIALLY stolen someone’s intellectual property who is within D.R.F. and also uses proceeds generated to support the D.R.F. as well.

I need to perform some more due diligence in this regard as well.

Riddle me this Batman: What is the relationship between The Nature Conservancy, T.U., and the Subcommittee of Ecological Flows (SEF) and D.R.B.C.?

Dennis T. Watson

John 8:32 -
"Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free."

 

[Future Fanatic]

Mr. Watson,

(NOT the pot calling the kettle black by any stretch of the imagination, but...)
Could you just state what your goal is, here in this thread?

 

[JW1970]

I don't know the point of your inquisition (nor do I frankly care); however, something needs to be pointed out as you've publicly posted inaccuracies.

The DRF website does NOT state "Website created, hosted and maintained by the Fly Fishing Connection, a Truform™ Fly Co., Inc. property".

The Coalition's website which was put in place to publicize the CP2 plan states that attribution at the bottom of its site.

 

[ddawatson]

Mr. Watson,

(NOT the pot calling the kettle black by any stretch of the imagination, but...)
Could you just state what your goal is, here in this thread?

John,

Transparency is the goal. Is that not your mantra as well?

 

[ddawatson]

I don't know the point of your inquisition (nor do I frankly care); however, something needs to be pointed out as you've publicly posted inaccuracies.

The DRF website does NOT state "Website created, hosted and maintained by the Fly Fishing Connection, a Truform™ Fly Co., Inc. property".

The Coalition's website which was put in place to publicize the CP2 plan states that attribution at the bottom of its site.

JW, you are correct and the posting has been updated to reflect that. However, DRF is part of the same coalition.

 

[JW1970]

Ah, I see. So you're a muck-raker trying to find something or someone in this flow issue process to undermine and discredit. Got it. Best investigate the FUDR while you're at it. There isn't an organization involved that doesn't have conflicts of interest galore.

 

[Future Fanatic]

John,

Transparency is the goal. Is that not your mantra as well?

Absolutely.

I'm just trying to understand YOUR motivation.

It seems that your implication is that Jim(DRF), who has been fighting the fight for years, who has been transparent in his advocating for all groups to work together and who has cooperated in the past with these diverse groups in an attempt to continue a relationship wherein the DRF could continue to affect change AND Larry, former FUDR board member who fought tenaciously to achieve 600cfs, who undertook a study to prove its feasability, discovered 600cfs was not feasible and is now no longer a FUDR board member are NOW somehow looking to sell out the Delaware system.

Transparency IS good.

But is my perceived implication of yours correct? Do you believe that they now do not have in their hearts the best interests (coming to a solution) of the flow issue?

 

[ddawatson]

Ah, I see. So you're a muck-raker trying to find something or someone in this flow issue process to undermine and discredit. Got it. Best investigate the FUDR while you're at it. There isn't an organization involved that doesn't have conflicts of interest galore.

Ah, I see. So you're a muck-raker trying to find something or someone in this flow issue process to undermine and discredit. Got it. Best investigate the FUDR while you're at it. There isn't an organization involved that doesn't have conflicts of interest galore.

JW, label me what you will. However, note the following. It is a conflict of interest to have a governing board hires the same organizations that should provide clarity and independence on the development of laws that impact not just citizens but the surrounding ecology of the entire river system in the Catskills.

I not so naive to suggest that these type of relationships DO NOT EXIST, however, if we are quick to judge FUDR for their position -- is it not just as FAIR to shed light on DRF, DRBC, DEC, DEP, and other organizations that impact the river system? The impression that I am getting is the CP2 is a cluster-f of organizations that have milked the taxpayer of dollars to push around studies, committees, meetings and other time/resource/money draining activities that ultimately provide what we have here today. A river system and management of reservoirs based upon the milking of the almighty dollar for agencies and SPECIAL INTERESTS GROUPS that have no inclination to provide a stable ecological system.

I am not a member of either CP2, DRF, TU, or FUDR. I am a concerned taxed citizen who sometimes fishes on the BEST DAM(N) RIVER SYSTEM on the East Coast -- when the water is released by the power to be.

Dennis T. Watson

John 8:32 -
"Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free."
__________________
DTW,
Always keep a reel full of backing...

 

[ddawatson]

Absolutely.

I'm just trying to understand YOUR motivation.

It seems that your implication is that Jim(DRF), who has been fighting the fight for years, who has been transparent in his advocating for all groups to work together and who has cooperated in the past with these diverse groups in an attempt to continue a relationship wherein the DRF could continue to affect change AND Larry, former FUDR board member who fought tenaciously to achieve 600cfs, who undertook a study to prove its feasability, discovered 600cfs was not feasible and is now no longer a FUDR board member are NOW somehow looking to sell out the Delaware system.

Transparency IS good.

But is my perceived implication of yours correct? Do you believe that they now do not have in their hearts the best interests (coming to a solution) of the flow issue?

FutureFanatic,

I am not sure what to think at this point. I know that Jim Serio in public IS A GREAT GUY! However, the impression is collusion between DRF and DRBC over the CP2 proposal presented to DRBC for consideration.

That is not clarity and certainly not what I perceived to be presented by DRF and the CP2committee.

I am truly hoping that DRF has not been hired by DRBC.

However, if the Federal Agency is aware of such a relationship and freely acknowledges such an arrangement, why didn't DRF publicly state this prior to the submission of the CP2 proposal?

I find that troubling and frankly disappointing. I am hoping that this is incorrect, but it looks like the only way to find out as a taxpayer is to go thru the FOIA process.

If there is a hidden agenda, hell, I am an adult -- just spell it out clearly and concisely.

In terms of the dedication and effort involved, that can be applied to all groups, not just DRF.


Dennis T. Watson

John 8:32 -
"Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free."

 

[JW1970]

collusion

:rofl: Ok, you're going to have to explain this one...

if we are quick to judge FUDR for their position -- is it not just as FAIR to shed light on DRF, DRBC, DEC, DEP, and other organizations that impact the river system?

I clearly said, then investigate the FUDR too. I didnt' say "instead." None of the groups (at least the fishing ones) are run very well in my opinion.

I am not a member of either CP2, DRF, TU, or FUDR.

Nor am I. TU national is pretty useless to the east coast. TU local has limited impact (more and less depending on the chapter). The FUDR has accomplished squat and had an overall negative impact on the negotiation process. The DRF has floundered on the big issues trying to take the "find the middle ground" approach which while logical has been pretty unsuccessful other than small steps made in relationship building. CP2 got shot down -- arguably because a certain organization wouldn't support it and worked hard to discredit it, although NJ may have shot it down regardless. (If NJ isn't the one who shot it down, someone please correct me.)

taxed citizen?

Interesting. If that's your primary point of perspective and concern, than you should dive a lot deeper into the DRBC, DEC, etc. THIS issue I'm sure is the LEAST of your tax-wasting concerns.

 

[ddawatson]

:rofl: Ok, you're going to have to explain this one...



I clearly said, then investigate the FUDR too. I didnt' say "instead." None of the groups (at least the fishing ones) are run very well in my opinion.

My response: I have not found any form of collusion between DRBC and FUDR. If you have, please let me know. But frankly, as much as this bulletin board members trash FUDR, I am surprised that some factual evidence has not risen to the top of discussion.

Nor am I. TU national is pretty useless to the east coast. TU local has limited impact (more and less depending on the chapter). The FUDR has accomplished squat and had an overall negative impact on the negotiation process. The DRF has floundered on the big issues trying to take the "find the middle ground" approach which while logical has been pretty unsuccessful other than small steps made in relationship building. CP2 got shot down -- arguably because a certain organization wouldn't support it and worked hard to discredit it, although NJ may have shot it down regardless. (If NJ isn't the one who shot it down, someone please correct me.)

My Response: I understand completely. I would rather instruct interested children and friends on the delights of fly-fishing and ecology than depend on my local TU chapter for collaboration or insight. I am not a big fan of TU either. I have made many attempts to participate, but always find my personal requirements un-met.



Interesting. If that's your primary point of perspective and concern, than you should dive a lot deeper into the DRBC, DEC, etc. THIS issue I'm sure is the LEAST of your tax-wasting concerns.

My Response: DRBC, DEC and DEP all need to be looked at more closely. After all, we are paying their salaries and they SHOULD BE accountable to the citizens, not corporations or special interest groups.

 

[JW1970]

After all, we are paying their salaries and they SHOULD BE accountable to the citizens, not corporations or special interest groups.

Yeah, and if they were accountable to the corporations and special interest groups involved in this negotiation process, maybe we'd have a flow over 255cfs today at Hale Eddy. :rofl: Hell knows they aren't accountable to us tax-payers on this issue.

Mr. Watson, I do believe you're barking up the wrong trees.

I also suggest you contact Paul Weamer, TruForm, the DRF, the Coalition and the DRBC next time before throwing out in public unfounded accusations which could have a wrongful negative impact on any of the participants involved. I realize you're speculating and trying to follow due diligence as a tax payer, but I believe your openly public speculation without ANY basis on which to base it is reckless.

Have a good one. I need to go send my check to NJ. Let's see that's $1 for every CFS head back... collusion... Best lay off the crack, man.

 

[ddawatson]

":Mr. Watson, I do believe you're barking up the wrong trees.

I also suggest you contact Paul Weamer, TruForm, the DRF, the Coalition and the DRBC ...."

My Response: Funny you should mention those groups, I have contacted many of these groups in the past 3 business days plus additional contacts in each. (Department Of Interior at the Office of Secretary Level, Department of Interior, U.S.G.S., F.U.D.R., D.R.B.C. and a few un-associated fly fisherman). The contacts know who they are and I appreciate their insight. I have asked tough questions, and I have received very direct responses that leave very little question about the state of inter-locking relationships.


It is sad how dismissive you are about something so important.

 

[AKSkim]

I have asked tough questions, and I have received very direct responses that leave very little question about...

The envelope please..... (drum roll) .......

 

[JW1970]

I have asked tough questions, and I have received very direct responses that leave very little question about...

Well, the information you've shared publicly has been entirely indirect, speculative and left no answers, facts or foundation for proof of your accusations. Thus far, it's all heresy. So, I imagine you work for Fox News or something. :rofl:

Until you're going to open the envelope AKSkim has requested, why don't you just come back when you actually have a factual case to share. You clearly aren't really using this discussion for your research, but rather to just spread accusations and speculation.

It is sad how dismissive you are about something so important.

I guess I just know there are bigger fish to fry and would rather focus my energies elsewhere. I'm sorry I'm not a supporter of your little inquisition, which isn't going to have any positive impact on the fact that again there's 255cfs at Hale Eddy today.

 

[Fly Tier]

Huh?
Who is the "as well"? And why on earth would you think I worked for the DRBC? What gave you that impression?

I see they have now made you their official Monkey

Larry,

Are you also hired by the DRBC as well?

Sincerely,

Dennis Watson

 

[rford]

duh duh duh duh duh

 

[Big_Spinner]

Hi D Watson,

I have not received an email or phone call from you, nor has the DRF.

All you have to do is ask responsible questions and I will , as I have always tried to do, give you answers.

I can save you some time:

I have no contract, nor have I been paid by the DRBC or DEC. The work I have done for them has been on a voluntary basis. I learned how to run the OASIS model and the USGS DSS model and have been making runs for anyone who has asked. My initial interest was to verify the OASIS and DSS runs that were produced by DRBC and DEC!! I primarily now work just with the DSS model as others have taken over the OASIS modeling.

Some of the DSS runs I have run for DRBC and DEC have been duplicated by the USGS folks to verify accuracy and my abilities to correctly run the software.

IF you have any experience with excel, I would be happy to show you how to make DSS runs yourself, so that you can verify any and all results. I would in fact appreciate the duplication. The DSS runs as an EXCEL spreadsheet and data is simply pasted into it and you press the run button. IT is incredibly boring work.

Here is a typical run:

Decide what you would like to test and compare. Let's say, we want to see the difference between releasing 200 cfs and 400 cfs from Cannonsville on the West Branch from June 1st to September 30th. All other conditions remain the same.

Enter the proper numbers into the OASIS model (10 - 30 minutes) and let it run for 10 minutes and it will produce a data file both in table and graphic format. The OASIS model runs through 73 years of data and does it one day at a time. All of the variables are updated and then the next day is run, etc, etc, etc. Some of the interesting outputs for the scenario mentioned above would be

To see what the FLOW at Hale eddy would be from the change we made.

To see what the level of Cannonsville Reservoir would be from the change we made.

To see if there is any change in other reservoir levels as a result of what we did.

To see if the salt line changes down in the bay.

To see how many "drought days" the change creates.

You get the idea, there are any number of outputs you can look at or even build your own!!

OKAY, so now you have the OASIS output for your one change.

The next step is to take the OASIS output for the 200 cfs run and enter it into the USGS DSS model. (10 minutes)

The next step is to take the OASIS output for the 400 cfs run and enter it into the USGS DSS model. (10 minutes)

Now you press the USGS run button and wait for 12 - 40 minutes, depending on the speed of your computer, and voila, you get a habitat output based on 10 years of record. (DSS can only run 10 years at a time)

You can now compare the CHANGE in habitat for many species between the two runs.

What is the change in adult trout habitat on 11 different sections of rivers?

What is the change in spawning habitat?

What is the change in shad habitat?

OKAY, now you have an idea what you want to do.

Now lets run it again for 10 more years and 10 more, etc.

OKAY, now lets say that you like what the 400 cfs does for the river and you think everyone can live with the results. NOW, lets run it again with a different temperature constraint. And do them all again for 68 degrees instead of 72 degrees.

OKAY, now lets say that maybe we can get 500 cfs on the West Branch from, so we go back to the top and run it all again.

OKAY, now maybe we want to see what happens if we change Pepacton releases or Neversink releases or, well if you are still with me here, you get the idea.

IF you go to the Conservation Coalitions website: The Coalition's Delaware River Adaptive Release Policy you can see the results of some of those runs. Over the last two years the Conservation Coalition did the boring grunt work of many hundreds of iterations of OASIS and DSS data to determine how to best utilize available resources. CP2 was the result of that work.

Incidently, the OASIS model is available by license from the DRBC to anyone who wants to cough up a few hundred dollars. THE USGS model will shortly be available for free from USGS. Check to see if it has been added to their library.

Hope this answers all your questions and that I can get another volunteer to help run the DSS. IT is a powerful tool that can help make informed decisions about the Delaware System. IT does not answer the question "What is Best?", but it does allow the users to see what the changes do and allows for the user to then make informed decisions.

By the way, just those couple of simple runs shown above can take you away from an afternoon of fishing.

Let me know how else I can be of assistance.

Jim

 

[Future Fanatic]

My Response: Funny you should mention those groups, I have contacted many of these groups in the past 3 business days plus additional contacts in each. (Department Of Interior at the Office of Secretary Level, Department of Interior, U.S.G.S., F.U.D.R., D.R.B.C. and a few un-associated fly fisherman). The contacts know who they are and I appreciate their insight. I have asked tough questions, and I have received very direct responses that leave very little question about the state of inter-locking relationships.


It is sad how dismissive you are about something so important.

So what say you now?

Does Jim's response cast doubt over ANYTHING that your "contacts" might say? It's unfortunate that we do not know who said what. Of course, transparency in that regard, is too much to ask, yes?

 

[MACFLY]

Hi D Watson,

I have not received an email or phone call from you, nor has the DRF.

All you have to do is ask responsible questions and I will , as I have always tried to do, give you answers.

I can save you some time:

I have no contract, nor have I been paid the DRBC or DEC. The work I have done for them has been on a voluntary basis. I learned how to run the OASIS model and the USGS DSS model and have been making runs for anyone who has asked. My initial interest was to verify the OASIS and DSS runs that were produced by DRBC and DEC!! I primarily now work just with the DSS model as others have taken over the OASIS modeling.

Some of the DSS runs I have run for DRBC and DEC have been duplicated by the USGS folks to verify accuracy and my abilities to correctly run the software.

IF you have any experience with excel, I would be happy to show you how to make DSS runs yourself, so that you can verify any and all results. I would in fact appreciate the duplication. The DSS runs as an EXCEL spreadsheet and data is simply pasted into it and you press the run button. IT is incredibly boring work.

Here is a typical run:

Decide what you would like to test and compare. Lets say, we want to see the difference between releasing 200 cfs and 400 cfs from Cannonsville on the West Branch from June 1st to September 30th. All other conditions remain the same.

Enter the proper numbers into the OASIS model (10 - 30 minutes) and let it run for 10 minutes and it will produce a data file both in table and graphic format. The OASIS model runs through 73 years of data and does it one day at a time. All of the variables are updated and then the next day is run, etc, etc, etc. Some of the interesting outputs for the scenario mentioned above would be

To see what the FLOW at Hale eddy would be from the change we made.

To see what the level of Cannonsville Reservoir would be from the change we made.

To see if there is any change in other reservoir levels as a result of what we did.

To see if the salt line changes down in the bay.

To see how many "drought days" the change creates.

You get the idea, there are any number of outputs you can look at or even build your own!!

OKAY, so now you have the OASIS output for your one change.

The next step is to take the OASIS output for the 200 cfs run and enter it into the USGS DSS model. (10 minutes)

The next step is to take the OASIS output for the 400 cfs run and enter it into the USGS DSS model. (10 minutes)

Now you press the USGS run button and wait for 12 - 40 minutes, depending on the speed of your computer, and voila, you get a habitat output based on the 10 years of record.

You can now compare the CHANGE in habitat for many species between the two runs.

What is the change in adult trout habitat on 11 different sections of rivers.

What is the change in spawning habitat?

What is the change in shad habitat?

OKAY, now you have an idea what you want to do.

Now lets run it again for 10 more years and ten more, etc.

OKAY, now lets say that you like what the 400 cfs does for the river and you think everyone can live with the results. NOW, lets run it again with a different temperature constraint. And do them all again for 68 degrees instead of 72 degrees.

OKAY, now lets say that maybe we can get 500 cfs on the West Branch from, so we go back to the top and run it all again.

OKAY, now maybe we want to see what happens if we change Pepacton releases or Neversink releases or, well if you are still with me here, you get the idea.

IF you go to the Conservation Coalitions website: The Coalition's Delaware River Adaptive Release Policy you can see the results of some of those runs. Over the last two years the Conservation Coalition did the boring grunt work of many hundreds of iterations of OASIS and DSS data to determine how to best utilize available resources. CP2 was the result of that work.

Incidently, the OASIS model is available by license from the DRBC to anyone who wants to cough up a few hundred dollars. THE USGS model will shortly be available for free from USGS. Check to see if it has been added to their library.

Hope this answers all your questions and that I can get another volunteer to help run the DSS. IT is a powerful tool that can help make informed decisions about the Delaware System. IT does not answer the question "What is Best?", but it does allow the users to see what the changes do and allows for the user to then make informed decisions.

By the way, just those couple of simple runs shown above can take you away from an afternoon of fishing.

Let me know how else I can be of assistance.

Jim

DDwatson I have no idea how Big Spinner manages to reply in as friendly a manner to you when your previous posts warrant no such response. How about you take a lesson. It has been suggested that you could simply ask the people directly before going chernobyl on this board. As Mr sutherland said in a movie a long time ago "negative vibes man..negative vibes".